Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

Formatting post-nominals examples

Since MOS:POSTNOM now says (after the 2023 RFC) "post-nominal letters may be included in the main body of the article, but not in the lead sentence of the article", why are the examples in MOS:BIO § Formatting post-nominals formatted with boldface names, as they would appear only in the lead sentence of the article? Can we maybe find some actual article where a post-nominal is properly "included in the main body of the article" but not in the lead, and copy the formatting from there? —David Eppstein (talk) 20:28, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Good grief. How did I miss this RfC? This is yet another example of cultural bias on en WP, something which was explicitly not taken into account by the closer. But in answer to your question, it actually now makes it awkward to explain what a post-nominal is when they haven't been introduced in the lead sentence with the name (where they belong, frankly). For example, in the body you might say, "In January 1927, Fooist was made a Companion of the Distinguished Service Order (DSO)." But then why is the (DSO) there? It essentially requires an additional sentence or explanatory footnote like "This award entitled the recipient to place the initialisation DSO after their name, or some similar formulation if it could be written generically to apply to all awards the person received that came with a post-nominal, which would be particularly important in the case of highly decorated Commonwealth generals, for example, who might have six or more postnominals, where you wouldn't want six separate notes. Talk about a solution in search of a problem... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Even as an anti-royalist and anti-classist, this doesn't make much sense to me. It's conventional to give post-nominals after the name of the person to whom they pertain, on the person's first mention in biographical materials about that person (or, I guess, about them in substantial part, e.g. if the article were about a band and its members, or covered both a person and the company they founded). What's not conventional is to keep repeating the post-noms in the same article, or to pepper other articles with them where they are not pertinent because the person to whom they pertain is being mentioned only in passing. The RfC alluded to must have happened while I was off doing something else, since I would have opposed this extreme result. The RfC is over at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography/2023 archive#Proposal: Moving post-nominals from lead sentences to article bodies, and the conclusion is "There is consensus in support of moving post-nominals outside of lead sentences." So, that equates neither to "removing from the lead section" nor "removing from the article". While I don't think that the practicalities of this were thought through at all (thus the current thread), and would support revisiting this as a WP:Consensus can change matter, I would think that in the interim, the most sensible approach would be to have the lead sentence read something like "Dame Amelia de Groot was a prominent underwater basketweaver, who ..." or whatever; then at the beginning of the first non-lead section, start with something like "Dame Amelia de Groot, MSW, POEE, was born Marie-Amelia van Phluph in ...", and progressively lay out her life and achievements in the course of the article. At that spot, use the same template, links, and (when deemed appropriate) footnotes with regard to the post-nom. abbreviations as we formerly used in the lead sentence. In other words, treat the non-lead first mention of the subject as the first mention for post-nom. purposes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Someone is going around removing the post-nominals from the article. It is a shame, because this is very important information, and sums up a career very well. But it is more important to assert American control over the internet lest the United States pull the plug on our servers. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Postnoms should be retained in the infobox. The big problem is that some editors are going around removing postnoms from the first line and either not adding them to the infobox if they are not already there or not adding an infobox where there is none. This is deleting information and is a very bad idea. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

G'day SMcCandlish, I entirely agree with your anti-royalist and anti-classist position, but I'm not sure about putting postnoms in the first sentence of the "Early life" section or whatever, because that bit is about the person at the time of birth, who their parents were, where they were born etc. It seems incongruous to put postnoms on their name at the point in the narative that they were born. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Fixable with sensible writing. Start the "article proper" with an introdutory sentence that nutshells who they were in life, then have a second sentence that harks back to their birth. Or put the post-noms in the first sentence of a "Career" section, or whatever. Or even later in the lead. My point was that "don't do it in the lead sentence", as a rule we're stuck with until this is re-RfCed, doesn't mean "don't do it anywhere in the article".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:47, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Is a "re-RfC" on the horizon?Halbared (talk) 20:24, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Not from me personally, since it would probably be more WP:DRAMAtic that I can stomach right this moment, and I have my head deep in several ongoing projects, so am not around WP a lot for the short term at least. But see #MOS:POSTNOM below, where the subject has been raised again; that could potentially be where to develop a followup RfC about this.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to import a line-item from WP:JUDAISMSTYLE into MOS:BIO

One important element of what will shortly be at WP:WikiProject Judaism/Style advice is a line-item, targeted by the shortcut WP:JESUSCHRIST, which is entirely correct and addresses a frequently recurring and sometimes disputatious WP writing issue, but has nothing to do with Judaism, really hasn't been seen by much of anyone, and actually belongs in MOS:BIO#Honorifics.

I propose importing that line item about use of "Christ" into that guideline, though with more guideline-appropriate wording:

Jesus should not be referred to in Wikipedia's own voice as "Christ" or "Jesus Christ"; the word Christ is an honorific title ('The Anointed'), used by those who believe specifically that Jesus is the son of God and is the Davidic-line messiah, in Christianity and some related doctrines including Theosophy. Wikipedia asserting this term would be against the neutral point of view policy. Jesus should be referred to simply as "Jesus" or, when more clarity is needed, "Jesus of Nazareth" (or "Isa" in the context of Islam, in which he is considered a prophet).

Having a locus for this in that section of MOS:BIO will also provide a place for whatever is eventually decided about Muhammad and "the Prophet" or "the prophet" (used alone or with his name), a subject of some continuing dispute. (An RfC about it earlier this year failed to come to a clear consensus, and it will probably come up again sooner than later.)
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I've thought for years it's absurd that we go on at such length about never using "PBUH" while completely ignoring the much more common NPOV issue of "Jesus Christ". To be clear for anyone unfamiliar, this isn't just a technical etymological "gotcha". Many Jews—and, I assume, many other kinds of non-Christian person—actively avoid using the word "Christ" to refer to Jesus of Nazareth, because it is an explicit statement of faith, even if some non-Christians do use it without meaning that due to cultural osmosis. I didn't know there was guidance on this in WikiProject Judaism's style guide, but now that you've raised this, yes, I definitely strongly support adding this to MOS:HONORIFIC, although it probably can be pared down a bit. I would suggest just

Jesus should not be referred to in Wikipedia's own voice as Christ or Jesus Christ; the word Christ is an honorific title ('The Anointed') which expresses the belief that Jesus is the messiah. Acceptable names include Jesus, Jesus of Nazareth, and, in Muslim contexts, Isa.

-- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|🤷) 02:22, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe trivially obvious but I think the difference in practice is mostly that secular usage totally memory-holes that Christ is a title. If I have ever run afoul on this, I'm guessing that's just me having that blind spot. It's clearly a perfectly equivalent situation upon examination though, and I'm glad you brought it up. Remsense ‥ 论 02:35, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

If "Christ" is a POV title, is "Buddha" as well? "Siddhartha Gautama" would be a name which doesn't take a position from within the belief system, and (thinking specifically about article titles, though this is about running text as well) is one which "someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize" (the WP:CRITERION of Recognizability) – so it's not as if no such option is available. Ham II (talk) 10:41, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Every title expresses a POV. The issue is Christ very specifically refers to the fulfilment of a concept within Judaism. Remsense ‥ 论 11:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Support for at least proscribing “Christ” alone. Would probably be better to merely advise “avoid Jesus Christ” though. It is certainly the most common name for him in English, and far more recognisable than “Jesus of Nazareth”. (We should also make sure to avoid using his middle name when in polite company.)

End jokes.

For what it’s worth though, I don’t see MOS:BIO as the logical place for this stuff; it would basically be saying that these are individual biographies who need a carveout, but applied to an entire wing of the encyclopaedia. Better would be to admit that religious topics just need their own place. Not that I would put up any fuss if it ends up here for now. Also, ain’t it weird that Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style (religion) has only Islam-related articles and Latter Day Saints? — HTGS (talk) 13:05, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Title link or no?

Hello there. There is bit of a dispute over at the article Victoria Starmer's talk page, about whether or not to link the title. My view is that, as a rule, the title should not be linked - e.g. King Charles III, as oppose to King Charles III - as that would be consistant with what is written in MOS:SIR. However, there is no clear policy there and its led to misunderstandings.

Can there be a policy made on this to avoid such disputes or at least clarified? Much appreciated. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:45, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish, you seem the most active on here. Pinging you first. Please ping others if you know who is most active here. Regards. Omnis Scientia (talk) 12:46, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Also pinging @Bagumba, @Tcr25, @Rosbif73, @Jerome Frank Disciple. They took part in a previous survey on MOS:JOBTITLES. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Don't link to the title, please. I'd say the same with President Joe Biden, for example. GoodDay (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid its another user who is being VERY adament in linking the title. I think you found the initial talk page as well where I gave this example, along with others. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't see anything in MOS:SIR that is relevant to this. All that is saying is don't change it from including the "Sir" to omitting it, of vice-versa, as both are equally correct. It doesn't mention whether to include the "Sir" in the link text, or not. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:26, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I know that "Sir" is USUALLY not linked in the event it is mentioned, which is where I'm coming from here. There isn't really a policy otherwise on whether a title should be linked in the name. That is partly why this should be clarified here, so there isn't any dispute/confusion about it going forward. And yes, this policy may not be the exact one but it is related to titles and I'm just making an argument based on what it says about titles in general as well as other policies on here. Omnis Scientia (talk) 17:42, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

What's the reasoning for not including King Charles III's title in the link text and writing it as "King Charles III"? We don't write "Pope Paul VI" instead of "Pope Paul VI" or "Princess Margaret" for "Princess Margaret", or "General de Gaulle" for General de Gaulle. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:00, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I already explained that but I will repeat it here: because "Princess" and "Pope" are both part of the article names - it it is part of the article name then it should be linked. I wouldn't link General based on that; I'd write General Charles de Gaulle if I had to, same as I'd write President Joe Biden. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:05, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, I've explained before to you specifically on the Victoria Starmer talk page, and I don't want to repeat everything all over again on this one - just see here if you want to see my stance fully. Regards, Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:22, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

This is a different discussion though, with a potentially very different audience. All relevant detail needs including as a matter of courtesy. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

If anyone asks for my opinion, then I'll given them my opinion. You already know it, however, and I don't feel the need to explain it to you in detail again. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:36, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

You cannot assume that I'm the only reader of this though, and should write it so that others know where you are coming from. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:04, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I began this convo so others can chip in and give their opinions. My view is that it should not be in the link which I made clear at the start and, if someone wants me to elaborate further, I will do so when asked. Since you know already, I don't feel the need to as of yet (and I've also put in the link). Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:07, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

So you think the link text should match the article name? Wow. What would be the purpose of redirects then? Or even pipes? Surely the link text should be in keeping with the article prose flow, style and English variant. Editors should not have to compromise the prose to incorporate the exact article name.

You would have fun trying to write prose in an article that referred to the Buddy Holly airplane accident. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:29, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, given that this discussion is related to TITLES only and my response was clearly in relation to titles in article names, I clearly meant it in relation to that. I would have thought that was fairly obvious. Please refrain from twisting what I actually meant; I was pretty clear and conscise in my reply. Omnis Scientia (talk) 18:32, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Would redirects for articles about people become redundant then if we adopt your idea? How about pipes, would they be allowed? -- DeFacto (talk). 19:26, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

*shrugs* I don't see how that is relevant to this conversation. I think I spelt out to you I'm just not in favor of the title being included in the link when the full name is being used - e.g. King Charles III or President Joe Biden - unless its part of their common name and/or article title, like Pope Francis or Prince Harry. If you want to a pipe/use or redirect where it is appropriate, go ahead. I'm not at all against piping Charles III to simply King Charles or using the redirect Prince William in place of William, Prince of Wales, nor have I ever said so. Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:55, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

You obviously haven't made it clear. And now you've made it even more confusing. So you're ok with piping Charles III as King Charles, but not with using the redirect King Charles III? Is that correct? How about piping Charles III as King Charles III? -- DeFacto (talk). 20:07, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

If you still think its confusing, I'm afraid that's not my problem. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Now I think it is best to wait for others' opinions on this matter as well. I've pinged a fair few people who partake in this talk page regularly and I hope we can hear from them soon. One other, @GoodDay, has already shared theirs on the matter. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

You didn't answer the questions, especially the one about piping Charles III as King Charles III. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I did. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Where? -- DeFacto (talk). 20:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Again, it's not my problem. And I already said I won't repeat myself to you. You don't seem to be interested in understanding either so its a waste of my time. Good night to you. Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:43, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm interested in trying to understand your objection to using redirects to link articles directly from vocabulary used in prose. At the moment, your arguments seem to wobble, and appear inconsistent to me, and I'm trying to unravel the confusion. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd say that the answer depends on the wording from which the link is being made. If it is more natural to include the word 'King' in the prose, then it should be part of the link per MOS:LINKINNAME, and it should not be piped per MOS:NOPIPE. But if the context means that 'King' is not needed, linking to Charles III is preferable. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Certainly is quite wording dependant, agreed. Omnis Scientia (talk) 08:08, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

The title doesn't need linking by itself (e.g. not [[King]] [[Charles III]]), but I would argue that it is far better, mostly for aesthetic reasons, to link the whole name, including the title, either by using a redirect (e.g. [[King Charles III]]) or a pipe (e.g. [[Charles III|King Charles III]]). The latter is not necessary here, but it is useful for titles like "Sir" that are not likely to have redirects. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:33, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Necrothesp, I think the first one would be a MOS:SEAOFBLUE issue so definitely no. Weirdly, part of my objection is aesthetic reasons too. I wouldn't link "President" in "President Joe Biden" in any way for example but I guess that differs from what type of title it is, would you agree? Omnis Scientia (talk) 19:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Neither would I! But I would link titles and military ranks. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:35, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Don't link the title as if part of the name. Just overlinking, extra blue for no reason. Few titles actual appertain to a person life-long anyway, so doing the links that way will often be contextually erroneous. E.g. President Joe Biden doesn't go, as some would quite reasonably expect to, Presidency of Joe Biden, i.e. the topical intersection of Joe Biden and his presidency; it goes to Joe Biden, which is about him as a person.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Reading the original post without context, at first I thought it was referring to Victoria Starmer's own title of Lady Starmer, but I see it's actually about the title in King Charles III. Until this discussion I would have written (in the few cases where using the titles at all would be the best choice) "King Charles III", "President Joe Biden" and "Sir Keir Starmer", essentially linking the article titles. But this discussion has persuaded me otherwise – if the title "Lady" is linked ("Lady Starmer" not "Lady Starmer"), and "Pope" often is because the article titles include it, and also "General de Gaulle" and Princess Margaret" don't look right, the most consistent approach is to link all honorific titles. If that creates an unwelcome amount of blue, it should be an opportunity to question whether "President Joe Biden" as opposed to just "Joe Biden", "King Charles III" as opposed to "Charles III", etc., etc., is the best choice of phrasing in encyclopedic prose anyway. Ham II (talk) 09:07, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

MOS:POSTNOM

The removal of postnoms from the lead under these new guidelines has started to create some problems. While I am not opposed to this in principle, I am opposed to the removal of information. Some editors are "enforcing" these new guidelines by removing postnoms (often on dozens of articles at a time) where there is no infobox showing them. If there is no infobox then the postnoms should remain in the first line until an infobox is added. It doesn't matter if the honours are included in the body of the article - it is extremely useful to have an indication of what the person's correct style is at the top of an article where it can be seen at a glance. This problem is compounded by the sniffiness of some Wikipedia editors about infoboxes, especially those involved in projects relating to cultural figures. An example of this can be seen on the article for Michael Hordern, where his CBE has been removed from the first sentence but an editor is resisting the addition of an infobox (and, indeed, deleting one that has been added) showing his CBE. Postnominals are important in the UK and other Commonwealth countries and removing useful information like this is not helpful. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:48, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't think the changes have been thought through very well, to be honest. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:33, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

+1. In Commonwealth countries, every publication includes a person's post-nominals like KBE, AO, at first mention. It's defining, and having to include a clumsy phrase in the lead to convey that information is a backwards step: it leads to more clutter and verbiage, not less. This should be discussed again. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 19:06, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with Michael Bednarek. In Commonwealth countries, the post-nominals are defining; we should not be losing information from articles. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:13, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't really see what purpose removing the information achieves assuming it is sourced properly. Post-nominals take up little space and putting them after the name is an easy way to naturally introduce them into an article. Mass removal of content based on a MOS guideline shouldn't happen as the MOS is only a guideline.

Although if it is being removed because it is unsourced that is a different matter. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

I would support reversing the previous decision about removing these from the lead sentence - that seems a reasonable place for them to be. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:37, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Same, though in the opposite direction we need to undo WP:ROYALTY and WP:NOBILTY's usurpation of infobox fields for pre-nominal titles and for names, to instead hold salultations and peerage/nobility titles, respectively. It's just unbearably bad. See Margaret Thatcher for typical example.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that some post noms should be in the lede, and also agree that not all need to be in the infobox. GiantSnowman 08:53, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

See also #Formatting post-nominals examples, above, for related recent discussion.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:38, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, a poorly thought-through decision which should be reversed. I suggest anyone interested read the thread Stanton linked above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I couldn't agree more with all of the points made by Necrothesp and Michael Bednarek. Paora (talk) 20:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I am opposed to the removal of postnoms from their normal position after people's names. Some screenreaders cannot read infoboxes, so putting the postnom there instead is no solution. DrThneed (talk) 03:53, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I completely agree with everyone. Particularly in Canada (and the UK along with the other Commonwealth countries), post-nominal letters are very important and heavily used. Post-nominals letters should not be removed from the lead at all, and I don't believe any of the changes impacting this policy were necessary or justified. There's no reason to be losing this information, and it seems like this was not thought through well at all. – Handoto (talk) 21:25, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Finally some common-sense, the previous decision was ill-conceived and should be reverted as soon as possible. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 04:38, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Appropriateness of using given names in bio

I just ran across an article about a retired US Navy admiral Mike Dumont, who in the second paragraph, it said "In 2017 or earlier, Mike served as a vice director of Joint Chiefs of Staff at Pentagon....". I changed this to his last name citing WP:BIO in the edit summary due to the fact that a bio of an adult like this shouldn't refer to the subject by his/her given name, as I had recalled seeing that it was part of the MoS from several years ago. I now can't find it in the MoS. Was it removed at some point in the past? I still consider it inappropriate. rogerd (talk) 21:25, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Surname should be used. GiantSnowman 21:32, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

MOS:SURNAME Schazjmd (talk) 21:34, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

It can be used in certain situations in order to differentiate from other family members who share the same surname who are being mentioned in close proximity. For example, after explaining who someone’s mother was, starting the next sentence with “Mike …”. But other than that, there is rarely justification for it, and it is too informal for an encyclopaedia. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:38, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! rogerd (talk) 21:44, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

I quite agree. rogerd (talk) 21:45, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I knew that, I was just looking for the operative policy. Thanks! rogerd (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Name usage in other articles

A debate is going on at Talk:List_of_common_misconceptions#"Mama_Cass" about Cass Elliot's name usage in List_of_common_misconceptions#Popular_music. The question is whether she should be referred to in the article as Cass Elliot (of The Mamas & the Papas) or as Mama Cass.

I realize that Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Names focuses on how to use a person's name in said person's article, but this is the closest I could find in WP: regarding this question.

Could someone help me figure out what policy or norm would apply to this situation? Thank you, Kingturtle = (talk) 05:28, 26 December 2024 (UTC)